Subj:	TRAVELLER digest 302
Date:	95-05-30 22:04:21 EDT
From:	traveller@mpgn.com
To:	traveller@mpgn.com

From:	traveller@mpgn.com
Sender:	traveller@mpgn.com
Reply-to:	traveller@mpgn.com
To:	traveller@mpgn.com (Multiple recipients of list)
			    TRAVELLER Digest 302

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: antimatter
	by "Upton, Django" <DUpton@vtrnntov.telecom.com.au>
  2) Re: More RCEG Problems (TD#297)
	by Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
  3) Re: TRAVELLER digest 300
	by aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
  4) We Have Always Been As We Are
	by Martyn Wheeler <sasmjw@unx.sas.com>
  5) Foreven
	by Hugh Foster <100326.446@compuserve.com>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 May 95 14:08:00 EST
From: "Upton, Django" <DUpton@vtrnntov.telecom.com.au>
To: tml <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: antimatter
Message-ID: <2FCBB94A@msmailv0.telecom.com.au>


Roger Moore <moore@hep.phy.cam.ac.uk> writes:

 ---------------------------
> Upton, Django <DUpton@vtrnntov.telecom.com.au> writes:
>
> I always thought that GDW's antimatter power plants WERE just "antimatter
> batteries".
> The production of that antimatter was not gone into but did not 
necessarily
> require less energy than the antimatter battery contained.
>
This is ok for a spaceship's power plant, however Alien Module 8 - The
Darrians mentions that they were building an anti-matter powerplant for a
city. This cannot have been a battery-type powerplant unless they had
someway of generating LOTS of cheap electrical energy somewhere else in
the system and a very efficient method of turning it into usable 
anti-matter.
 ---------------------------

Looks like I missed a reference there. I've got an excuse to get around to 
reading my copy of "Darrians" now :-)
Still, just about every OTHER reference I've seen in Trav has been as the 
"battery type".

 --------------------------
> I read somewhere that the mass in the universe may be attributable to CP
> violation in the decay of supermassive particles shortly (~10^-35 seconds) 

> after the big bang.
> As traveller contains gravitic manipulation to the point of the creation 
of
> pocket universes prehaps similar processes were used by the ancients to
> create supermassive particles to make their antimatter!

Nice idea - although if they have that sort of tech why not create a
small black hole which will be 'hot' and then you can turn ordinary
matter straight into radiation - no more problems of anti-matter
containment, in fact you could use the fuel as armour!
 --------------------------

As I understood it the descriptions of the supermassive "X" particle and a 
very small black hole are very similar (if not identical).......

chrisb@MPGN.COM (Christopher Beattie) writes:

 ---------------------------
"Upton, Django" <DUpton@vtrnntov.telecom.com.au> writes:
 ---------------------------

No that was Roger Moore <moore@hep.phy.cam.ac.uk>  you are quoting.
I'm stuck with this msmail thing here at work and it doesn't put in the ">" 
things at the side so I put a "----------------------" above and below all 
quotes.

 --------------------------
> To get useful energy out you need to find someway of producing
> anti-particles WITHOUT the associated particle ie. an interaction which
> is different for matter and anti-matter. We know that there has to be
> something that does this since the Universe is made of matter, with no
> traces of anti-matter anywhere. We can observe something of a difference
> in the decays of neutral kaons (a type of meson) and the experiment I'm
> working on is trying to find what causes this difference. (The technical
> term for this is break in the matter/anti-matter symmetry is CP 
violation).

That's sounds very interesting. (It's been quite a few years since I've been
involved in high energy physics) This may not be exactly a traveller 
question,
but If I recall a while back there was a model of anti particles which 
treated
anti-particles as normal particles travelling backwards in time.  This of
course mandated the symmetry and was used mostly to explain decay of micro 
black holes which should have been created in the Big Bang.  Is this still
still a somewhat acceptable theory?
 ---------------------------

Roger Moore <moore@hep.phy.cam.ac.uk> will probably be able to answer this 
as he appears to be a whole bunch more qualified to do so but here's my 
Cr0.02 anyway:
I thought that the "anti particles = particles going backwards in time" 
model was just that; a model! It is convienient to help explain some things 
but I have no idea as to its mathematical validity. Also we are talking 
about CP violation, just by the name it appears that some accepted rule(s) 
have been broken!

Django.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 May 95 23:55:53 -0400
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: More RCEG Problems (TD#297)
Message-ID: <9505300355.AA16066@qrc.com>

I've been away from my mail, but this needs a response:

cs5025@wlv.ac.uk (L.T.Bryant) wrote:
> After sitting down with a calculator, the following results  were
> found.
> 
> 7*26mm-5
> 7*30mm-6
> 7*30mmE-10
> [These are] worked through as a necked round, but in FF&S it states
> rounds must have a Lcc of 35mm + to be necked.  As a straight
> round the energy is Ea (alot less).

While the FF&S rule may state: "Necked cartridges [...] must be at least
35mm long in order to be necked.  (There do exist some short pistol rounds
that are slightly necked, but these are included under straight rounds
because their performance is not sufficiently different from straight rounds
to justify a distinction.)"

This rule is both factually incorrect for existing real-world weapons, but
also seems to be honored more in the breach than in the observance.

The following real-world weapons used a necked cartridge shorter than 35mm,
and in some cases, the difference between a necked and a non-necked version
of the cartridge is siginificant enough to warrant a distinction.  The
significant cartridges that I'm aware of include the 7.62x25mm (.30 Mauser),
8.00x21mm (8mm Nambu), and 7.92x33mm (Sturmgewehr 44).

The following rule was suggested during the playtesting of FF&S as a
replacement for the above rule that was printed.  I still suggest using it.

"Necked cartridges are used whenever the required propellant volume is
larger than a stright cartridge would allow, and the designer doesn't want
to lengthen the cartridge.  Necked cartridge cases are usually longer than
35mm, but any cartridge 25mm or longer may be necked."


> 14.5*146mm
> energy should be 30860J ( the crunch gun Just got less scary ;) )

OK, the "Crunch Gun" is my design; I think I'd better step in with some
comments here.  For the record, there's nothing wrong with the design as
presented in RCEG; neither is there anything wrong with your calculator!

The problem with this cartridge design is that the RCEG doesn't give you
enough information to complete the design!  The actual round is
14.5x146.7mm (necked).  For the sake of brevity (or just sanity) the
extra .7mm of cartridge length got lost, resulting in a loss of 157.957J.

For your amusement, here's the posting that started it all.  Please note
that I was using a playtest edition of FF&S, and references to the
capabilities of FGMP and PGMPs, as well as Battle Dress, Combat Armor,
Grav Tank, and G-Carrier all refer to the versions of these items as
originally published in T:TNE (and not after revision, correction, or
outright re-design).

My feeling with the "Crunch Gun" would be to use the game statistics (range,
penetration, damange, and so on) as presented in the RCEG, but use the mass
of the "real thing" - FF&S makes the weapon come out far too massive to be
really practical!

My original message is set off with vertical bars; comments I've added
at a later date are inserted where appropriate.  Enjoy!

| Subject: A Rifle design
| Cc: l.wiseman1@genie.geis.com
| 
| This is (yet another) small arms design; tonite I'll knock off of the
| small arms and see if I can design a Ilyushin Il2m3 (better known as
| the Shturmovik) to check out the aircraft design sequences.  That plane's
| armor should be, um, challenging, in the FF&S system.
| 
| 
| No longer do your TL-5, xenophobic natives have to cower in fear of
| Reformation Coalition backed Star Vikings.  Have the local warlord call
| up a few squads of these "poor man's fusion guns".  With Ball ammunition
| (locally producable at TL-5), they can penetrate TL-10 Battle Dress and
| any Combat Armor.  
| 
| With DS ammunition (a TL-8 item), these weapons have damage and penetration

| equal to (or better than, particularly at longer ranges) the FGMP-14 and
| FGMP-15 and can effectively defeat all forms of personal armor, as well as 
| the side, deck, belly, and turret armor of the G-Carrier and the Grav Tank.

| Given their relative low cost, particularly when compared to their
high-tech 
| opponents Battle Dress (Cr220,000) and Fusion Gun (Cr54,000), these weapons

| are clearly very cost-effective.
| 
| 
| Example 5: 14.5mm Protivotankovoe Ruzh'yo obr 1941g (PTRS-41)
| 
| 
| Item			FF&S Value		"Real-World" Value
| 			 (note 1)	(all values taken from published
| 			Ball	DS	 real-world data except as noted)
| I. Ammunition
| 	Tech Level:	5			USSR circa 1941
| 	Caliber:	14.5mm			14.5mm
| 	Length:		146.7mm			114mm
| 	Type:		Necked			Necked, AP Incendiary
| 	Overall Length:	175.7mm			?
| 	Mass:		242.25g			201g
| 	Average Energy:	31007J			31017J
| 	Price:		Cr12.1	Cr24.2		?

Note: When converting "Real-World" weapons to FF&S, it is usually best to
ignore the real-life cartridge length, and vary the length of the FF&S
design until you achieve the closest "average" energy.  Depending on your
source of "Real-World" ballistics data, you _may_ have to iterate through
the barrel design (to find the actual energy of your cartridge for a FF&S
barrel the same length as the real-world test barrel).  Another tactic,
which is used by GDW in some of their designs, is to hold the cartridge
dimensions to their real-world values, and vary the tech-level.  However,
given the particulars of this weapon (WWII-era Soviet Union), I felt that
crediting them with an unusually high TL to raise the energy of the
cartridge would be stretching things a little too much.

With a bit of algebra, formulae to make such conversions relatively
straightforward are possible, but slightly beyond what I feel like typing
at this hour.  Perhaps in a follow-up article.  :-)

| II. Weapon Design
|   1. Barrel
| 	Average Barrel:	147.5cm			139cm
| 	Actual Barrel:	139cm			139cm
| 	Type:		Heavy
| 	Weight:		4.17kg			?
| 	Price:		Cr1668			?
| 	Actual Energy:	30123J			31017J
| 	Damage:		12	12		* 12
| 	Penetration:	2-2-3	1-1-2		* 2-2-3

Using the published FF&S,
	Average Barrel: 143.5cm
	Actual Energy:	30522J
	(other values unchanged)

|   2. Receiver
| 	Type:		Light Self-Loader	Semi-Automatic		
| 	Length:		95.5cm			?
| 	Mass:		30.123kg		?
| 	Price:		Cr6024.6		?

Using the published FF&S,
	Length:		96.8cm
	Mass: 		31.007kg
	Price:		Cr6201.4
	(other values unchanged)

|   3. Stocks
| 	Type:		Wooden Rifle Stock	Wooden stocks, carrying
| 	Length:		25cm			handles, and integral bipod.
| 	Mass:		1kg
| 	Price:		Cr25
| 	Barrel Len Mod:	0.9145			* 1
| 	Close Range:	206.3m	247.6m		* 229.0m

Using the published FF&S,
	Barrel Len Mod:	0.9625
	Close Range:	218.6m	262.3m
	(other values unchanged)

|   4. Feed System
| 	Type:		Internal Magazine, Clip Loaded
| 	Capacity:	5			5
| 	Mass:		1.308kg			?
| 	Cost		Cr1309			?
| 	Loaded Mass:	2.519kg			1.193kg
|
|   5. Options
| 	? Total Mass:	36.601kg (w/o bipod)	22.053kg (with bipod)
| 	? Total Length:	259.5cm			213.4cm
| 	? Total Price:	Cr9026.6			?
| 	Recoil:		5 			* 5
| 	Bulk:		17			* 14
|     b. Bipod
| 	Bipod Mass:	15.062
| 	Bipod Cost:	Cr200.6
| 	Total Mass:	51.663kg		22.053kg
| 	Total Cost:	Cr9227.2
| 	Recoil:		3			* 3

Using the published FF&S,
	? Total Mass:	37.486kg (w/o bipod)
	? Total Length:	260.8cm
	? Total Price:	Cr9203.4
	Bipod Mass:	15.261kg
	Bipod Cost:	Cr162.61
	Total Mass:	52.746kg
	Total Cost:	Cr9366.01
	Range:		268.2m	341.0m
	(other values unchanged)

| * Gaming data computed from real-world values with FF&S formulae.
| 
| Notes:
| 1 - Whenever two figures are given, the first is for ball (an option for
| Armor-Piercing Incendiary would have been nice) and the second is for the
| "high-tech" (TL-8) Discarding Sabot round.
| 
| Comments: Yes, this really was a real gun.  Originally designed as a man
| portable, anti-tank small arms rifle by the Soviets during WWII, the gun
| was quickly outclassed by the rapidly improving armor protection of
| German tanks.  The cartridge lives on as the ammuntion for the TL-6 KPV
| machinegun (found on many Soviet armored vehicles and anti-aircraft
| defenses).  The gas-operated action of this rifle (scaled down, of course)
| found its way into the SKS rifle.
| 
| All in all, I'm not really very happy with this FF&S design; the weapon
| came out more than twice as heavy as it should have (a hundred-and-fifteen
| pound rifle).  I think the problem here is that the FF&S design system is
| too linear; if you push on the high end, you get guns that are much too big

| and heavy, and if you push on the low end, you get things like 10mm (cal) 
| by 3mm (long) cartridges and guns that are much too light.

The final version of the FF&S rules only make things worse, actually.  At
52.746kg (116.3lbs!) for the loaded rifle alone, this is much, MUCH too
heavy!  The real-world weapon, bipod and all, weighs less than the FF&S
reciever alone.
  
| Tactical Considerations:
| The close range of this weapon exceeds the extreme range of every fusion
| gun except the FGMP-14 and -15, and the short range equals or exceeds the
| extreme range of any of the fusion guns.  The best use of these weapons
| would be long-range fire at the attackers, from behind cover (preferably
| cover strong enough to resist an extreme-range fusion gun strike) or
| sniping from outside the range of their weapons.  If this is impossible 
| (and it frequently is), then a series protected positions likeley to
suprise 
| the enemy are good (around a corner in a corridor, for example).
| 
| Game Use:
| This weapon (or rather, one using the "real world" stats and not the FF&S
| design, which is completely impractical) could be quite useful to anti-RC
| forces in the New Era.  A relatively low-tech design, it is quite capable
| of being manufactured by many worlds in the Wilds.  Although the DS
| ammunition is probably going to be considerably harder to produce, there
| will probably be a number of worlds equipped with it.  As Star Viking
| activities expand, it is very likeley that traders operating in the wilds
| will find a demand for this type of weapon.
| 
| Several adventure plotlines are possible around this weapon; one which 
| suggests itself to me is probably obvious.  The players (RCES or 'Lancers) 
| attempt a smash-n-grab on some TL-5 to TL-7 dictator.  They expect an easy 
| time of it.  Pull this one on your players after they've done two or three 
| of the same type of missions in a row and have had a chance to get 
| overconfident and complacent.  Suprise them with the weapon; without the DS

| ammunition, it shouldn't be too deadly, but should (if employed well) be 
| able to prevent the PCs from accomplishing some or all of their objectives.

| Drive home to them in a practical sort of way how difficult their lives 
| would be if lots of worlds had them.  Later developments in the campaign
can
| involve efforts to stop free traders from spreading the guns (or the
designs)
| around the area.  Another one might have to do with discovering that
someone
| is producing DS ammunition.

There you go ... a "fixed" Crunch Gun!  :-)


wildstar@quark.qrc.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   "A shining New Era is tiptoeing nearer
..."
                                                "... and where do we
feature?"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 May 95 19:06 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 300
Message-ID: <memo.621907@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <199505290129.VAA14102@Ambassador.MPGN.COM>


  > From: E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK 
  > Subject: RE: TL increases 
  >  
  > So, in conclusion, it seems that most worlds can increase a Tl, except
  > Average Stellar worlds that are not Capitals or Industrial. Worlds
  > with Research Bases are liable to multiple increases, as are worlds
  > with significant population increases, starport improvement(Whanga),
  > or those on a main. 

One point you should bear in mind is that the extremes of the TL scale
correspond to longer periods of time than in the middle. ie it took Terra
thousands of years to go from TL 0 to 1, whereas it only took a decade to
go from 7 to 8.

However, I agree that most worlds unaffected by Virus should have gone up
a bit by now - don't forget that the old data dates from the Second Survey
(1065, IIRC), so this was over 50 years old even by the time of the
Rebellion!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 16:54:54 -0400
From: Martyn Wheeler <sasmjw@unx.sas.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: We Have Always Been As We Are
Message-ID: <199505302054.AA08161@laverda.unx.sas.com>

>  Given the above numbers (which were rather suprizing to me), and the
>  large quantity of existing Classic Traveller background material
>  accessable to GDW, a _We Have Always Been As We Are_ Classic
>  Traveller sourcebook for T:TNE might be the best choice for a new
>  T:TNE product.  (some of you may remember Mike suggesting this title
>  for such a book a while back).  How about it, Loren?

Just a minor quibble (as I desperately try to catch up on digests)...  I
was the one who suggested the title; a saying attributed to Queen
Victoria, I believe.

Anyway, to add a non-data-point to the survey, my campaign is on hold
and therefore doesn't qualify, but I've been using a non-Rebellion
background (non-5th-F-W, actually).  I'd certainly welcome a Classic
Imperium sourcebook (but then, these days I buy all new Traveller
material because of the number of times I've kicked myself for not
buying older stuff when it first came out).  The reason the campaign
is on hold is to shift over to TNE rules, of course. :-)

Martyn
 ------pixie@mercury.interpath.net---(Martyn Wheeler)----DoD #293------------
SAS Institute, Inc: (919) 677-8000 ext.7954    H: (919) 839-0092 (Raleigh,
NC)
    "We live in the short term and hope for the best" -- Finitribe

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 95 17:34:15 EDT
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@compuserve.com>
To: <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Foreven
Message-ID: <950530213415_100326.446_BHG39-1@CompuServe.COM>

>>  Does anyone have world data for the FOREVEN Sector, 
using  the world locations from Imperial Lines #1?    If 
so, please drop me a note, as I'd like to talk to you.  <<

Hi Rodge! No, not using those positions - but I have the 
complete sector designed up as a non-canonical playground...


-----------------------------------------------------------------
| Hugh Foster [100326,446]                                      |
|                                                               |
| Faith goes out through the window when beauty comes in at the |
| door.                                                         |
-----------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 302
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